Third interview with Vittorio Trupiano

Nella foto, l'avvocato Vittorio Trupiano

Social Democracy (Demos) is the denomination of an independent anti-imperialist formation, which is also capable of transforming itself into a political party, the Director of which is the Neapolitan criminal lawyer Vittorio Trupiano, already known for the significant role played in many court cases: amongst these, only to mention a few, there are those referring to Paolo Dorigo, accused for the terrorist attack carried out by the Red Brigade on the U.S.A.-N.A.T.O. base in Aviano, to Marcello Lonzi, a prisoner who was found dead in Sughere detention centre in Leghorn (according to the lawyerís hypothesis, he died due to out and out torturing), to the Imperiale brothers, accused of a IT fraud aimed at the money-laundering (the covering count: in fact, it is emerging that the real motive of the requests for their extradition to England derive from the suspicion that they are Al Qaeda supporters)... In the following interview, the main features of Demos are highlighted, and which one wishes to collocate in a transversal manner beyond that of the left and right wing traditions: from guarantism in the legal sector, with respects for the freedom of expression and human rights, to positions taken against war policies and Israeli-Anglo-American tyranny (especially damaging Iraqis, Palestinians, Lebanese, Iranians), in the quest for a true national independence in particular with respects to the N.A.T.O., which has never been an expression of freedom, and which today is particularly obsolete. Furthermore, also the positions of the DICO couples has been highlighted (with an important difference made between the rights of people living together and the opposition to ways which facilitates the possibility of adopting a couple of the same sex) and those of more significant matters regarding tradition (with, for example, the critical comment about Luisa Veronica Ciccone, also known as Madonna, the American singer who recently converted to Kabbalah, the mystic Jew, in order to direct her away from her degrading behaviour;actually, howewer, Luisa Veronica Ciccone is Christian, beacuse is returned Catholic ) and, above all, social behaviour.

1) You are organising a political movement, Social Democracy (Demos), the name of which has already been published by press conferences, and which could also become a political party. Such a movement will therefore substitute the formation which you founded in the past, the Trupiano List? And if so, what will be the main difference between the Trupiano List, historically very concentrated on themes of justice and Demos?

Apart from the themes of justice, which are equally at the hearts of both of us, we will deal with all questions regarding social matters.
2) In fact the Trupiano List was a movement, not really a political party...

It has never been registered as a political party.

3) Will there be any particular links between your specialised experience as a criminal lawyer and professor of Law, and the proposals of Social Democracy, obviously mainly concerning something as regards justice?

We will integrate all themes dealing with justice together with other new ones, therefore evidently my endless experience as a criminal lawyer will certainly be useful to me, and not only as regards the theme of justice: throughout the entire programme. Therefore there is a connection, yes.

4) In which way can Demos fit into the current political panorama, in particular concerning any eventual alliances? More specifically, I ask you if it will be possible that it will go beyond the traditional barriers between the various right and left-wing parties, co-ordinating itself with different groups in the aim of reaching common, shared objectives... It could have, therefore, a more independent line?

Demos will be independent. The problem of how it will fit in doesnít worry me in the least, maybe others worry about it more, should they wish to be our alliances. Personally I donít worry about it, because should I start to be involved in politics full-time (because this is the real novelty), by worrying about where to fit myself in, I would already be starting off on the wrong foot. At the most the others, noticing by existence, and I assure you that they will definitely notice it, will have to fit themselves in or not, because one cannot take part in something that emerges and not acknowledge it. Therefore contacts must be made by the others; I donít have to make them. If I make them I am not new, I am already a loser and a replicant from the start.

5) Therefore the importance regards the contents...


6) Regarding the Demos sign, has it been chosen, apart from avoiding having the same name as the Left-wing Democrats, also to underline the social, popular aspect, given that it shares the same name as the Greek word "demÚs", population?

Yes, it comes from the Greek demÚs, and it means the power of the people, with a Maximalist content, yes.

7) Could you illustrate the main positions of Demos as concerns social and internal politics?

An accentuated nationalisation: the exact opposite to what is happening.

8) Therefore also a primacy regarding the policy on economy?

Yes, exactly, as well as a primacy of the public on the private.

9) Have you a particular programme in mind also regarding the pensions?

Certainly! The population is ageing, the age of the average Italian is getting older and older. It is the group of citizens therefore to which we must give priority, for a question of mathematical rather than logical deductions, if the population gets older, if we live longer. Obviously those which live longer, that is the majority of the Italians, they must have a better quality of life. Therefore they must not be abandoned in the positions of misery in which they have been abandoned, irrespective of the political colours which govern us, because all things considered it is a pretence, do you understand?

10) Yes.

The opposition and the Government are united as regards commissions, they are united on everything ... It is the system of bipolarism, today itís my turn, tomorrow itís yours: allied in facts, illegally, in order to divide the things also in the commissions.

11) The get more and more similar, then...

Thereís even a Vice-president of the Chamber who belongs to the opposition... Therefore it is just Italy that is so, the power between the two groups which you know all too well. This doesnít suit me at all; this mustnít suit us at all.

12) Doesnít the demographic fall appear to be a sign of decay to you? Whilst once births were encouraged, now things proceed in a different matter...

A sign of decay? A sign of shame, of Roman Empire-style decay, in its final phase.

13) Itís something that reminds me of the late-antique era...

It is the victory of death over life, are you joking? It is also the victory of capital, of well-being, of the money god over life. It is exactly the defeat of the human race, not of the State. It is the consequence of years of legalised criminality as regards abortion as well as the right to die. Themes which you know as well as I do, isnít it so?

14) Of course... Letís say that often it is a well-being that weakens, in a certain sense?

Absolutely yes.

15) In your opinion wouldnít it be useful though to try to encourage the birth rate a little more if it is not internalised should decay be the state of affairs?

But it seems evident to me...

16) Without returning so tout court regarding ideas such as in the past "Numbers mean power", this demographic decay, at least morally, should be opposed...

However, numbers mean power. The Chinesees, who donít seem to be Mussolinian to me, have proved it.

17) However the thing is true in itself...

And during the era in which this phrase was coined, it meant superpower.

18) Which were the main inspirers of Social Democracy as concerns foreign policy, the main, pivotal ones?

The abolition of the Atlantic Alliance. We donít want to be aggregated anymore in the torturing Anglo-American missions. We are Italians, we are extremely proud of being so. We donít even believe in the United Europe, not even in the Europe of the Homelands, a phrase dear to the right-wing, whether it be conventional or not. We rather believe in military co-operation, such as in the various republics of the ex- Soviet Union, but from a cultural, economical and linguistic point of view, I donít really see any affinities between myself and a citizen from London or from Liverpool. There are a few more, but only just a few, between me and those from the South of France. Practically the old continent is the true heart of life; of civilisation...unfortunately many civilisations have expressed, it is really impossible to have a united Europe in the sense of jurisdictional unity, military unity and cultural unity. This is an extremely great illusion which despite the Euro and despite certain current alliances, also this is miserably failing; but, I stress: the important thing is to disassociate oneself from the adventures of Uncle Tom, which are criminal adventures, almost always carried out without even the mandate of the United Nations Organisation...

19) Just like in Iraq...

The U.N.O. however is another acolyte of criminals, which opens all its three eyes, even the one it doesnít possess, when human rights are violated in Iraq, or rather when they were according to it, they are opened a bit less, because numbers mean power, when human rights are violated in China, they are not opened at all when human rights are violated in the gas chambers in American prisons, and the U.N.O. is completely blind when Israel breaks its arms, it napalms [from napalm, that it attacks with such incendiary weapon, editorís note], and tortures the Palestinians. Therefore, if this the International Court, in order to pass to the Hague, to that which put Milosevic under indictment, doesnít take it into consideration, this is truly politics, you see, in the most vulgar sense of the word. It is History which judges who the assassin is, whether it is Bush or whether it was Saddam. You see, here in Italy a great culture has been created, which has been demystified many times over, and then one has tried to historically revise it... You can already see how fragile the concept of law is: in 1933 Fascism was law, or rather it was an expression of it and anything else was illegal. Then there was the Partisan conflict, because as I do, only an obtuse right-wing supporter could say that it has not existed, it has even succeeded in winning a civil war, Fascism became illegal, all that was illegal under the reign of Fascism has become legal now.... Therefore it will be History, the Justice of History, to decide whether it was right to inflict those humiliations on the Muslims in the prisons and the concentration camps in Abu Ghraib, whether or not it was right to substitute the Nazi extermination camps with camps for forced sexual games with electrical shocks underneath the genitals of the Muslims. It is an extremely faltering historical concept one which does not evaluate things with the right parameters. However we will not necessarily have to have anything more to do with this kind of people, especially after the falling of the Berlin Wall [the N.A.T.O. supporters, editorís note]. What they do is illegal, it costs us: also in terms of economy. It is very short-sighted of those, then, who politically exploit these enterprises, these situations, then to go on to sectorialise them. What sense does marching against the enlargement of the U.S.A.- N.A.T.O. base in Vicenza have, if one does not act on many of the other numerous bases existing in Italy as well as on the numerous, thousands of atomic warheads deployed by Uncle Tom throughout the peninsular?

20) It may seem too partial, and then
Italy has said no to nuclear weapons, predominantly, by means of a referendum, and we also have the nuclear weapons belonging to others: this is an extremely serious point...

In fact this emerges from a vile concept of doing politics: you see in Italy, currently, where with a government coalition of centre and left-wing parties the highest institutional positions of which, such as the Presidency of the Chamber of Deputies, for example, are even in the hands of the Hard-Line Communist Party, and yet it is afraid of taking positions against the Americans: it is exactly the confirmation of what I mentioned at the beginning... illegality, today itís my turn, tomorrow itís yours, agreements are made.

21) Thereís government by compromise, concerning this, letís say...

The greatest dream of my life would be to destroy bipolarism.

22) Your position is in favour of the Resistances of the various Muslim populations, also currently: is that right?

Certainly, in particular regarding that of the Iraqi Sunnites, and I wish for the creation of an Iraqi Islamic State in contraposition with American Imperialism.

23) Already in the past you had stated that, whilst you also supported the Shiite Resistance of belonging to
Iran against the United States of America, you are against the Shiite collaborationists, and you support the Palestinian Resistance.

I am against those Shiites who have betrayed their faith, their cultural identity...they would be manlier if they had driven Saddam away themselves, letís admit it, without involving the Americans.

24) And so, in this way they would have sorted things out between themselvesÖ

Oh yes!Ö Well done! well done! Just as I greatly esteem and admire the Sunnite and Shiite Palestinians of the Resistance, the Lebanese Shiites of Hezbollah, certainly.

25) You affirm to respect the Muslim women, who in Iraq have often been violated by the occupying forces: women who, in reality are very active, due to the fact that, they are traditional in their way of dressing, often dressed in black, you mentioned, then they are political activists, differently from an occidental symbol, Madonna (Veronica Ciccone), who appears to symbolise a certain consumerism as an end in itself...

Yes, these Muslim women are not subjugated to men, in the most part of the cases; they are even extremists with respects to the men.

26) Therefore they are militants, extremely strong women...

Militants who respect an ancient precept in which everyone is free to believe or not to believe.

27) An interpretation of religion, not even an obligation...

Also in the Christian religion, protestant and not the Catholic faith, you always hear of things like women are subjugated, I repeat subjugated, to men, to the male species: thereís who likes it, thereís who doesnít like it... for certain reasons I donít like it, for others I do, but the Biblical meaning is so: therefore we say that this exists beyond whether we are describing Muslims, Christians....

28) That is we are simply dealing with things which concern a traditionalist society.

Then another religion for me doesnít exist, please understand, Muslim or Christian for me does not make any difference, I donít know if Iíve made myself clear; letís say that they are more orthodox, in the true sense of the word, therefore the veil, the burqa which they show they want to keep for themselves.

29) To keep to the atavistic traditions, in a national sense... Can a respect for oneís origins be seen?

Absolutely... You see them being manifested on the streets of Teheran: they are much more overexcited, using the Western term "fanatics", than the men themselves: no-one sends them into the streets, they go there of their own accord.

30) And you made the comparison by means of a negative and different example: by means of that of Madonna, of the decadence which is highlighted...

Madonna is the incarnation of Western society, with her corruption, with her moral dreariness, with her morals which do not exist anymore...

31) In conclusion, the destruction of morality.

Madonna is exactly the symbol, the incarnation of worldwide "whorishness", Madonna is the symbol of worldwide perversion, she is also lesbian and she is really a drug addict. And sincerely speaking, as a Westerner, should I find myself on political business, in an Islamic, Arabic, not even a fundamentalist country, and should I find myself watching one of those numerous sketches on TV speaking about this prostitute or other European or American colleagues, in that moment I would honestly feel a great sense of shame [It should however be stated that the term prostitute cannot be understood in a literal sense, because Luisa Veronica Ciccone, "Madonna", did not literally prostitute herself]..

32) You also told me of your criticising Daniela SantanchŤ of the National
Alliance political party, who had proposed the prohibition of wearing the veil at school...

But of course: she is an idiot, she is a hen which practically frequents the courtyard of one of our Countryís ex-traitors, because by now he doesnít count for anything anymore, he is still a traitor, but he is an ex as regards power...

33) Fini?

Gianfranco Fini... This woman is an imbecile, and only I assume the written responsibility for what I affirm, and then they are public figures, and it has been established that they are subject to criticism as long as this is not particularly offensive...

34) Therefore you assume the responsibility for this by means of a discharge statement...

Yes, but I have had many court cases accusing me of slander, of libel; well, letís go back to the first question: democracy also means freedom, but true freedom, not that which the Americans wanted to import.

35) Therefore, the freedom to criticise, unless one does not arrive at point where one has to use the most evident foul language.

Exactly. E only say that this foul, enormous, incommensurable moron, goes on to say that in the school it must be forbidden for the Islamic children to wear a veil, well, in brief nothing should be forbidden to Arabic children of Islamic faith. And the lady forgets that we, starting right from myself, we have made the mistake, and I am regretful for this, even if I am a Christian and a believer, of having our children baptised.

36) We have made the mistake in not letting them have a choice, you wish to say.

Well to get them to take their First Holy Communion when they didnít understand a bloody thing: if possible, this should be stated literally. We have done worse, but a lot worse than the Muslims have done. We have indoctrinated them, in fact we havenít even done this, they are indoctrinated, we have made them go daft, we have driven them silly and we have sold them by means of illicit trade which are our religious ceremonies, differently from theirs, which take place in the sacredness of their mosques, finish in festivals and wine-based parties.

37) Therefore they end up as having a more commercial aspect.

Tell me what sense has Christmas? Wasnít it all about the Word of Christ? To give to the poor? What can with presents of 800 euros resolve in all this?

38) Amongst other things, if you notice, celebrations begin letís say a month in advance, probably in order to sell more, that is to say in the middle of November you can already see everything decorated.

Itís a dishonest business, an extremely dishonest business which doesnít do anything but offend the memory of Jesus Christ when He was on the face of the Earth, and the true meaning of His Word.

39) Amongst other things, He was considered by many to be the first socialist.

Ms. SantanchŤ think about the Christian martyrs instead of the consumer society, think of our forced indoctrinations, instead of poking your nose and your head, assuming that she has one, in other peopleís business.

40) Listen, thereís another thing which interests me, that is your criticism as regards the PACS, talking of that which can pave the way for homosexual couples to adopt children, as you mentioned that subsequently the children could come out of this situation full of complexes, maybe even causing them to commit suicide..

Yes, very full of complexes. No, no, no, really under this point of view it is disgusting. It is right that they [homosexuals, editorís note.] they have the possibility to live together, it is right that they do whatever they wish during their intimate relationships, as a choice of lifestyle: itís not their fault, assuming that we can talk of fault whether they are attracted by one sex or another... sincerely, I think that not even the most obtuse, retrogressive of reactionaries, and we are not reactionaries at all, would associate with these theses for proclaimed imbeciles, just as, I must tell you, the various Buttiglione pseudo-philosophers: a surname which becomes what you drink, it is its political essence. Therefore, this absolutely no, but to come and speak to us of adoptions, to speak of, in fact, that two men or women together substitute that which nature, not religion, not the law, but nature has established, is beyond belief...

41) In a certain sense natural rights, is something which comes before written laws...

They are things which nature has created, we are not speaking of God and so in this way we allow the atheists agree too. Obviously such a kind of adoption would only cause these children to have the wrong idea... They have already been born in a difficult situation due to the fact that they are no-oneís children: they would be even needy of one of the best adoptions between males and females. They will have in front of their very eyes an example which is forever homosexual, or two men or two women; I believe that we are at the same level as that of criminals, of legalised abnormality, of legalised abomination.

42) The supreme injustice is that it is legalised, and for this reason it would be even more clamorous should the thing really happen, in this sense, be definitely approved... Listen, anyway you were telling me that your criticism as regards the DICO or PACS couples call them what you wish (they are called PACS in France), did not, in reality regard the regulations and more rights for couples living together, instead, rather as for heterosexual couples, for a man and a woman who live as husband and wife...

Yes, of course, why do you want to criticise us? And I have already told you that I hate parties linked to consumerism to which also wedding celebrations limit themselves.

43) In the past you have already said that for you, marriage was basically a contract: may we repeat this also in the interview?

It is absolutely a contract: a contract which has to be contested, this is the exact definition! Contested many times... Then, at the end of this interview, I would like to underline a concept: that for many reasons I esteem much more the political positions of the extreme left-wing, for example the hard-line Communist Party, rather than those of the institutional right-wing, I didnít say extreme...

44) The positions you have taken have an extremely social and revolutionary side to them, I would say really...

The prerogative of revolutionarity does not only belong to the left-wing, it is not only Marxism.

45) Socialism is not only left-wing; there is also the social right-wing, the social extra-parliamentary right-wing, much more in that direction with respect to National
Alliance, obviously... Also the term national socialism includes the word socialism.

But I would be a replicant also if I referred to this latter version and political creature, which unfortunately has never taken off, and it is an historical fact, that it has gone well and it has been actually expressed by a few town councillors, in about 0.5% of the national press. To create a novelty means to turn your back on the old.

46) Your political idea has therefore its own originality.

The transational right-wing, the radical right-wing, are all political formulas which have failed.

47) And old-style...

It is necessary to extract what is good from all directions, if there is good, or however invent something different. I absolutely and categorically refuse any connotation which limits itself in terms of fascism, consumerism, proletariat or the bourgeoisie.

48) Listen, talking of a few points which are commonly shared with the extreme left-wing, not wishing to offend neither yourself nor your political party as regards originality, you were telling me that you have always been against the N.A.T.O., and that however you considered communism as something to be less worse with respects to the N.A.T.O. itself.

The only remedy against the N.A.T.O., due to the fact that however it came from the East, and the East, if you allow me to say, is Europe. It is the biggest continent in the, Eurasia, which is not a formula which has been invented by the radical right-wing, which doesnít limit me, not being part of it in an exclusive way, it is a geographical fact. Europe and Asia are a unique continent: those belonged to it, the Yankees didnít. Fortunately, there is still the sea between us and them.

49) I would also add one more thing: you were telling me that during the era of the Cold War, even if you were against communism especially due to its materialistic nature, you considered it to be less worse, as however it has certain anti-imperialistic traits, with respects to Americanism, to American capitalism and to Zionism...

But of course: to go and bombard, when I was born, in 1952 in Korea, it wasnít the Russians who went to bomb Vietnam where neither the Russians nor the Chinese had been. Those [Korean, Vietnamese, editorís note.] are people who have defended themselves: amongst other things, the Vietnamese beat the Americans soundly. It is a heartfelt greeting which I wish the Iraqi and Palestinian populations. I apologise for the way in which I have expressed myself, but report it literally. But can we say this or will they throw me back into jail, be careful? [In 2003 lawyer Trupiano was a victim of a wrongful arrest for external collaboration in association with the mafia and in this case the camorra, from which he came out totally acquitted, editorís note] Does democracy really exist after all?

50) OK, I suppose that we can say this, all things considered...

Does the freedom of speech really exist in an Imperialist State? No, look criticism and satire are stimuli of life. I am not being subversive, nor am I speaking against primary national interests, nor am I attacking State security. I only wish, seriously, that the Iraqis throw out the English and the Americans.

51) I think that it can be said, how do you say "to come out of it with only a few broken bones...".

This thing regarding the English and American troops translates my thoughts more faithfully, just as the Vietnamese threw out the Americans during that period in the past. I am a Hezbollah fan: what am I supposed to do? If you go to the football stadium and it is not necessary that you must obligatorily be a Juventus fan... I want this right to be guaranteed...

52) Well, you are not the only person I have interviewed that has declared to be on the Hezbollahís side....

[This article-interview was published on these Italian journals: Caserta24ore, Corriere di Aversa e Giugliano, Ciaoeuropa, Qui Calabria, Italia Sociale] [Translation into English language by Terry Marshall]

Antonella Ricciardi , 10th March 2007